to trend or not to trend

Discussions related to operation of turbine-powered PA46 aircraft
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rschibler
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Joined: 16 Nov 2006, 18:19

to trend or not to trend

Postby rschibler » 01 Apr 2008, 13:45

Whilst on the subject of shadin....Excuse the naive question, but do you guy believe the trend monitoring from the trend group is worthwhile? Sure, I've only had the engine a year, but don't really get any meaningful feedback from the trend group, other than the odd exceedance, which I can pull from the shadin info directly. I was expecting stuff like "you need to do a power recovery wash", or "your engine is performing in the 45 percentile". The document they send out every month doesn't seem to be informative, and I wonder whether they will actually catch any trends that require some owner/operator intervention.

Ross

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mcquillen
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 17:32

Postby mcquillen » 01 Apr 2008, 15:33

ross,
there is nothing they do that you cannot.
just make sure your signed up and sending data to p&w.
carl

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dhbeisner
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Registration Number: N812MB
Based: KSGF
Ratings & Certificates: MEIL

Postby dhbeisner » 01 Apr 2008, 20:59

According to TREND I use the "Fox (P&W) guarding the chicken coop" since day 1 (8/03). It is inexpensive (200/yr recently raised from 180/yr) and if you email a question/concern they will respond. I established my contact at P&W when I attended their free pilot course in Montreal and he has been very responsive. When queried why they offer this, they told me that they want as much data on the "new" -35 as quickly as possible. Even fueled me at their cost which was ~2/gal less than the retail.
Don
JP #152 N812MB
KSGF Springfield MO

ahbullard
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Registration Number: VH BGK
Based: "Bengerang" GARAH NSW 2405
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Postby ahbullard » 01 Apr 2008, 22:31

Guys like Ross I use a local bloke for my trend monitoring who does nearly all the PC12's in Australia
I am not sending my data to P&W!
Should I?
Trend tried to get me signed up a couple of years back but at then about US $1750 per annum versus 50 bucks a quarter locally it was a no brainer
How are you sending your data to Pratt's?

Let me know please
Andrew Bullard VH BGK

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dhbeisner
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Postby dhbeisner » 02 Apr 2008, 06:57

Andrew,
I was going to email you but thot perhaps others might also be interested so I will risk cluttering up the forum like some MMOPA's "yes" or "call me".
After reading the key in Fleetview, you go to their tools and translate the data into a PNW file. You then log on to P&W's WebECTM with your password, go to engine health/condition, and upload your translated file. You can then see the engine profiles (dNg, dITT, dWf{fuel flow in lbs/hr}) in graphical form from day 1. You can also view the data of each power check (date, press alt, IOAT, IAS, TQ, NpN1, NhNgN2, ITT, Wf, dNhNgN2, dITT, dWf). Fleetview may not put the data where you would like it and WebECTM is not the most intuitive either, but you learn to live with it. Printing the graph is problematic and works best with PrintScreen or SnagIt software. If you dont hear from P&W everything is OK. I will sometimes email my contact asking him to review my engine.
Don

JP #152 N812MB

KSGF Springfield MO

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dtaylor
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Joined: 09 Oct 2007, 16:41

Postby dtaylor » 04 Apr 2008, 11:02

I’m happy to see the topic of trend monitoring show up in this forum. I have already responded directly to the originator of this post regarding the specifics about our service, but I would like to offer some clarification about trend monitoring in general.

It’s true you have the option of subscribing directly to PWC’s trend monitoring program, WebECTM. However, by doing so you are then taking on the responsibility and liability for performing the analysis of the trend monitoring graphs. According to the PWC Service Information Letter regarding WebECTM (PWC SIL No. PT6A-122), this option is intended for self-sufficient operators with in-house trend data analysis expertise. The SIL also states a professionally trained technician is required to properly assess shifts in trend and recommend remedial action. While Pratt & Whitney Canada personnel may provide occasional graph review at your request they do not review your data each time it is uploaded. Nor does Pratt & Whitney Canada provide routine analysis or maintenance recommendations.

Pratt & Whitney Canada (PWC) has established a network of 4 Designated Analysis Centers (DAC) worldwide which are authorized to provide trend monitoring on a commercial basis. In addition to minimum staffing levels, recurrent training, and insurance requirements, PWC also requires the DAC’s to use the WebECTM program to perform the analysis and provide maintenance recommendations to the operator when the trend monitoring graph warrants corrective action.

The primary reason a PT6 operator should be on a trend monitoring program is to catch small problems before they evolve into large costly problems. In our experience the most common problem we come across is indication errors with the ITT and Torque. While this may seem like a minor discrepancy, keep in mind that in the JetProp you generally setup in cruise to a predefined ITT value. So if the ITT is falsely indicating low 20 degrees, you may be running your engine 20 degrees hotter than you think you are. How much added deterioration is this contributing to after 25, 100, or even 500 hours of operation?

In the 16 years we have been in business, we have issued over 15,000 alerts to operators of all types of turbine engines. We have extensive history showing that when done properly, trend monitoring can prove to be a very beneficial tool in reducing the cost of operation.

I would be happy to discuss any questions or concerns about trend monitoring with anyone who is interested.

Denis Taylor
The Trend Group
Ph (800) 297-6490
denistaylor@thetrendgroup.com

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dickmiller
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Postby dickmiller » 04 Apr 2008, 12:48

In response to those who have commented that paying the fee to the Trend Group is a waste of money to get a generic letter each month saying everything is OK, I would like add my 2 cents.

There have been a couple times in my 6+ years of flying my JetProp that someting has not been right with my numbers. I have received phone calls from the Trend Group to make sure I am aware of the situation and have it taken care of.

The level of professional responsiveness have been impressve.

Dick Miller
N58BC
SN 58
Richard Miller
PA Precision Cast Parts, Inc.
JetProp N58BC SN 58

ahbullard
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Postby ahbullard » 04 Apr 2008, 21:14

I get the same service of a ring back and discussion from my local Bloke who does my trend work.
I didn't want to imply the trend fees were a waste of money. Sorry if that came across.
My maintenance people also keep an eye on the trend graphs
Regards
Andrew Bullard VH BGK

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drdan
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Postby drdan » 12 May 2008, 16:20

While on the subject of getting useful feedback from TREND group. I will also chime in. We too have had some engine hiccups in the years we've been flying our JetProp. The availability of Denis Taylor on the phone answering questions, and having him available to answer P&W; JetProp and Insurance company questions, and advocating on our behalf makes all the difference in who pays for major engine repairs.

Airwilly
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Registration Number: 9120y
Based: Kmso
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Re: to trend or not to trend

Postby Airwilly » 18 Jul 2015, 18:22

One has to remember the big thing about trending is one does not have to do a hot section at mid time. A hot section could run $25,000 bucks and for $100 bucks per month one never has to do a hot section as long as your trends are good. I think the $100 bucks per month is a good investment. The other thing is for resale. The trend group will provide the operator with a history of operations that can be used to support your asking price. Lastly is if you as a operator mess up Trend will tell you to have it fixed because it is not safe to operate... I trend because it works for me...


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